Re: [ARSCLIST] commerical reels history (was Boston Pops question)

[Steve Abrams <steveabrams@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>]

I do not have 'golden ears' and I would expect your judgement to be better 
than mine.  I have recently upgraded my system and will listen again to the 
two versions of 'Tabor'.  However, the difference of opinion here is really 
between Mark Obert-Thorne and yourself.  With respect, his reputation is 
second to none.  Any comments from other parties would be most welcome.

Steve Abrams

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Tom Fine" <tflists@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
To: <ARSCLIST@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Sunday, April 08, 2007 4:34 PM
Subject: Re: [ARSCLIST] commerical reels history (was Boston Pops question)


> Well, to each their own. The critics did not agree with you in most cases. 
> The Mercury mono reissue CD's sold very well worldwide and are now 
> available again as a 4 or 5CD (forgot which) set, all the Kubeliks. I 
> personally greatly prefer the CD's to the original LPs (which we have 
> excellent-condition copies of). Again, everyone's entitled to an opinion. 
> I'll grant you that the master tapes were over 40 years old in 1996, but 
> it was amazing how they played back OK. The LPs noisy surface may mask 
> some of the limitations of tape, machine and microphone.
>
> If the "Tabor" is what I heard, we have very different opinions. I heard 
> all sorts of digital artifacts, obvious tape degradation and a 
> non-realistic stereo pickup. But again, to each their own.
>
> -- Tom Fine
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Steve Abrams" <steveabrams@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> To: <ARSCLIST@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> Sent: Sunday, April 08, 2007 10:18 AM
> Subject: Re: [ARSCLIST] commerical reels history (was Boston Pops 
> question)
>
>
> > What I am saying is that the Mercury Living Presence CD issued in 1996 of 
> > "Ma Vlast" does not sound good.  I remember the LPs sounding better 
> > though I only had them on a cheap reissue in the UK on the Wing label. 
> > The stereo issue of "Tabor" that I know came out last year on Music & 
> > Arts and was restored by Mark Obert-Thorne.  It sounds much better than 
> > the mono version.
> >
> > Steve Abrams
> >
> > ----- Original Message ----- 
> > From: "Tom Fine" <tflists@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> > To: <ARSCLIST@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> > Sent: Sunday, April 08, 2007 3:02 PM
> > Subject: Re: [ARSCLIST] commerical reels history (was Boston Pops 
> > question)
> >
> >
> > > Hi Steve:
> > >
> > > Thanks for the RCA clarification. It was the same set of sessions I 
> > > thought but different works.
> > >
> > > Yes, Bert Whyte was permitted by Mercury to bring his 2-track 
> > > Magnecorder and place a pair of U-47 mics at the Kubelik session. Some 
> > > of the tapes were issued on a small label CD in recent years and sound 
> > > terrible to my ears. Could be the tape is deteriorated, could be the 
> > > playback or transfer equipment wasn't good. Could be the engineer didn't 
> > > properly line up the staggered tracks, etc. They definitely over-used 
> > > digital noise-zapping tools so there are digi-artifacts galore. I 
> > > imagine the tapes sounded better when they were new and played back on 
> > > that Magnecorder.
> > >
> > > Bert's tapes were a personal experiment. Never intended for release. Not 
> > > particularly praised or lauded by the professionals involved in the 
> > > session. In fairness to Bert, this was pioneering in many respects, as 
> > > was his pioneering use of magnetic film recording for Everest.  Bert 
> > > wrote a really nice column for Radio & TV News in 1956 about the day he 
> > > was invited to the studio to hear the first Mercury 3-track tapes that 
> > > were ready for release. He was treated to a full-monty 3-speaker 
> > > extravaganza.
> > >
> > > -- Tom Fine
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message ----- 
> > > From: "Steve Abrams" <steveabrams@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> > > To: <ARSCLIST@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> > > Sent: Sunday, April 08, 2007 8:18 AM
> > > Subject: Re: [ARSCLIST] commerical reels history (was Boston Pops 
> > > question)
> > >
> > >
> > > > Not quite.  The Munch Damnation of Faust in February 1954 was recorded 
> > > > in stereo but only issued in mono. Something happened to the stereo 
> > > > tapes. The Reiner recordings of  Heldenleben and Salome's dance were 
> > > > recorded on March 6th.  Zarathustra came two days later on the 8th. 
> > > > However - and you should be able to shed some light on this - some 
> > > > stereo recordings were made by Bert Whyte at the December 1952 sessions 
> > > > of the Chicago Symphony recording Ma Vlast under Kubelik.  'Tabor' 
> > > > recorded on December 6th has recently been issued on Music and Arts in 
> > > > a transfer by Obert-Thorne. The very unpleasant overload distortion on 
> > > > the Mercury Living Presence mono set, very evident on the CD issue, is 
> > > > not evident in the stereo version.
> > > >
> > > > Steve Abrams
> > > >
> > > > ----- Original Message ----- 
> > > > From: "Tom Fine" <tflists@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> > > > To: <ARSCLIST@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> > > > Sent: Sunday, April 08, 2007 12:10 PM
> > > > Subject: Re: [ARSCLIST] commerical reels history (was Boston Pops 
> > > > question)
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > > I'd be interested to know what's on them and who released them. I do 
> > > > > not believe you'll find that they are in fact 2T stereo. They are 
> > > > > likely half-track (2-sided) mono. If they are stereo, it would be very 
> > > > > interesting to know who put them out as in 1952 only a few people were 
> > > > > experimenting with 2-channel stereo recording of music. No major 
> > > > > labels yet, although I believe RCA started making 2T masters in 1954 
> > > > > or even 1953 -- I think Zarathustra with Reiner was the first 2T 
> > > > > session.
> > > > >
> > > > > -- Tom Fine
> > > > >
> > > > > ----- Original Message ----- 
> > > > > From: "Jack Palmer" <vdalhart@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> > > > > To: <ARSCLIST@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> > > > > Sent: Sunday, April 08, 2007 12:29 AM
> > > > > Subject: Re: [ARSCLIST] commerical reels history (was Boston Pops 
> > > > > question)
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > >    I bought my first 2 track tapes for my reel recorder/player in the 
> > > > > > Base Exchange in Sidi-Slimane, Morocco in 1952.  I still have a 
> > > > > > couple of them in fact.   Jack
> > > > > >
> > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- 
> > > > > > From: "Tom Fine" <tflists@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> > > > > > To: <ARSCLIST@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> > > > > > Sent: Saturday, April 07, 2007 9:40 AM
> > > > > > Subject: Re: [ARSCLIST] commerical reels history (was Boston Pops 
> > > > > > question)
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > Ampex developed their own, was developed by Leon Wortman in NY and 
> > > > > > > detailed in a 1951 Radio & TV News article. Wortman's line made 
> > > > > > > full-track or half-track tapes. Commercial half-track tapes were 
> > > > > > > available as early as 1951 or 1952, but there was only a very small 
> > > > > > > consumer market for reel to reel machines at that point. > Because 
> > > > > > > this was a new format sold at a premium price, a lot of QC attention 
> > > > > > > was paid by the reputable companies in this era, so the net quality 
> > > > > > > is very high. Akin to what happened when stereo LPs came along.
> > > > > > .
> > > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
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